UFOs, Abductions and U.S. Government Human Experimentation
It is common knowledge now-a-days in the U.S. about the African-American syphilis experimentation done on men during the 1932-1972 timeframe and the recently admitted experiments done on Guatemalans during 1946-1948.
Now there’s possible news of experimentation done on ordinary citizens using various nuclear materials since 1947:
Revelations yesterday (Friday, Oct. 1) that the United States government in the late 1940s conducted clandestine medical experiments on mental patients, prisoners and soldiers in Guatemala rocked western hemisphere international relationships, with more such disclosures apparently on tap.
Announced late Friday by the Obama administration, apparently to reduce domestic coverage, the disclosure nonetheless is provoking outrage in Guatemala and among minority communities elsewhere because the medical scientist reportedly in charge of the experiments also was central to the infamous Tuskeegee syphilis study.
That study, disclosed in the 1970s, involved hundreds of African-American men used as human “guinea pigs” by American researchers from 1932 to 1972. Many of the unwitting research subjects were left untreated for syphilis as researchers watched the progression of their disease. Others were administered various experimental drug treatments.
The Guatemalan studies reportedly involved 1,500 men and women and took place between 1946 and 1948, according to The WashingtonPost as reported in its Saturday morning edition (Oct. 2, 2010; Page 1-A).
The full story, contained in a 29-page report by a Wellesley College history professor, is slated for publication in the January 2011 issue of The Journal of Policy History.
These latest findings, discovered by researcher and professor Susan Reverby, came to light incidentally to her research at University of Pittsburgh archives into the papers of John C. Cutler, a physician with the US Public Health Service, and his involvement with the Tuskeegee study. Cutler died in 2003.
Then-US Surgeon General Thomas Parran, Jr. was among a number of high ranking US government officials who also knew of the Guatemalan studies, according to Reverby’s report. Parran, who died in 1968, is quoted in the Post story: “You know, we couldn’t do such an experiment in this country.”
Parran quite likely knew very well that his statement was not true.
In reality, such experiments were widely conducted in the United States during this period, ironically while the US government proposed and signed the Nuremberg Code proscribing medical and other experimentation on unwitting human subjects.
Such prohibitions were born of Nazi atrocities uncovered at the close of World War II and prosecuted by the US at the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunals in the late 1940s.
And while the US signed the Nuremberg document in 1947, officials with the military, the then-new Atomic Energy Commission (derived from the Manhattan Project) and other government agencies and research contractors abjectly and routinely disregarded the Nuremberg Code, while conducting a range of experiments on unwitting citizens.
Previous revelations about these practices caused a stir in the Clinton administration, when a 1993 series by then-Albuquerque Tribune reporter Eileen Welsome revealed “The Plutonium Experiments,” a long-term study of the effects of Plutonium injected into unaware patients by then-esteemed medical researchers on behalf of government agencies.
Welsome stumbled upon references to those human experiments in 1986 while looking into radiation experiments on animals and problems attendant to radiation leakages at older nuclear facilities.
Welsome won the Pulitzer Prize for her series in 1994, and President Clinton apologized to the families of those victims, as well as to thousands of American service personnel (termed “Atomic Veterans”) exposed to radiation from nuclear weapons tests and, at least until the mid-1990s, generally abandoned and ignored by their government.
Also in 1994, University of Cincinnati professor and physician Eugene L. Saenger, who according to his Washington Post obituary in 2007, “led Cold War human radiation experiments,” was sued by families of cancer patients “who said their relatives were unwitting guinea pigs in a military-sponsored experiment.” That lawsuit reportedly was settled in 1999 for $3.6 million.
The link to the much publicized “Roswell UFO,” widely described by government-linked “UFOlogists” as being a “crashed flying saucer,” replete with recovered bodies of alleged “extra-terrestrial” occupants, arises from little-known rocket tests and other medical experiments associated with post-World War II research into the effects of radiation and high-altitude exposures to humans.
The tests were conducted by then-Army Air Corps and “our” captured Nazi scientists beginning in 1946, at the White Sands missile testing facility, and involved animals lofted into near-Earth space in the nose cones of captured V-2 rockets as well as alleged human subjects flown by high-altitude balloons.
Most contemporary advocates of the “Roswell UFO crash” scenario have involvements with government nuclear programs and other military or intelligence research in their resume’s, but now publish “UFO conspiracy” books and are regularly featured as speakers at “UFO” conferences. Their vaunted “investigations” rarely if ever come up with prosaic explanations, especially those involving less well-known experiments using humans.
Ongoing efforts to promote “UFO Disclosure” by the US government experience periodic up ticks in public interest, the most recent accruing from several new books and media events claiming “ET/UFO interference” with military activities, such as at ICBM launch facilities in the 1960s and subsequently, as well as other military related “UFO reports,” often associated with US Air Force and clandestine intelligence agency operations.
Current activities include a contributory effort by former Clinton White House Chief of Staff John Podesta, previously head of the Obama transition team and now president of the Center for American Progress, who penned a forward for a new book pushing “UFO disclosure” by journalist (Ms.) Leslie Kean.
Kean previously teamed with Podesta for a 2001 investigation into a claimed 1965 “UFO crash” at Kecksburg, PA, sponsored in part at the time by the Science Fiction (SyFY) television channel, and used Freedom of Information requests targeting NASA for information about the Kecksburg event.
Kean’s new book features alleged “UFO interactions” reported by retired US military personnel, while Kean, and Podesta in his forward to Kean’s book, both claim they are “agnostic” about whether “UFOs” as reported are actually “extraterrestrial” in nature.
Yet both Kean and Podesta previously advocated the “ET” genesis of such events.
In 1993, the late industrialist and philanthropist Laurance S. Rockefeller funded a range of “UFO-related” projects to encourage the Clinton administration to “disclose what the government knows about UFOs,” an initiative that also reached into the office of then-First Lady Hillary Rodham Clinton.
Rockefeller met at at least twice with Clinton administration officials in the White House, in 1993 and 1994, and reportedly discussed the “UFO question” with Mrs. Clinton during a Clinton family vacation at Rockefeller’s “JY Ranch” near Jackson Hole, WY, in the mid-1990s. Mrs. Clinton has subsequently refused to acknowledge or discuss the subject.
Mrs. Clinton, now Secretary of State, issued a joint apology for the Guatemalan debacle with Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius on Friday, saying in part: “Although these events occurred more than 64 years ago, we are outraged that such reprehensible research could have occurred under the guise of public health,” and “…we apologize to all the individuals who were affected by such abhorrent policies.”
Clinton era efforts to have a range of past government operations declassified came after Welsome’s story about the Plutonium experiments and in the wake of aggressive activism by “atomic veterans” and advocacy groups.
A government-wide search for past human experimentation efforts was instituted as part of President Clinton’s effort to force declassification of millions of pages of government documents from the Cold War’s secrecy, although the effort was plagued by bureaucratic foot-dragging and claims of lost files or intentional lapses in the documentation of such programs.
Former President George W. Bush shut down that effort in the weeks after the September 11, 2001 attack by Islamic terrorists, although President Barack Obama reinstituted government-wide declassification mandates upon taking office. These are ongoing.
Activists for supposed “UFO Disclosure” generally ignore, downplay and deflect public and journalistic interest from any recollection or recounting of human experimentation possibly attendant to so-called “ET abductions” or other alleged “UFO” activity involving reported contacts with terrestrial human beings, in the US and now most notably in other countries and cultures.
The Guatemalan disclosures likely signal a “climate change” in how such alleged reports are considered, as much so-called “UFO” activity and claimed conspiracies involving citizens of countries other than the US have been the centerpiece of “retail UFOlogy.”
Previously, the American CIA acknowledged that many claimed “UFO” sightings during the Cold War years had been of exotic reconnaissance aircraft the agency sponsored and developed, including its A-12 supersonic spy plane, code named “Oxcart.” That aircraft later went public as the SR-71 Blackbird, now “retired.” The skin of an early A-12 prototype recently was installed as a static display at the CIA’s campus in Langley, VA, and a retired SR-71 was added to the collection at Smithsonian’s National Air and Space Museum, after a record-breaking final flight across the continental United States.
Less proudly remembered are previous government and military intelligence research programs into so-called “mind control” and other experiments aiming to influence human and cultural behaviors, alleged victims of which continue to seek recognition and justice for claimed medical and psychological damage they suffered.
Although the UFO phenomenon has been with us for thousands of years, it’s not outside the realm of possibility that various governments over the past 80 years have used it as cover for their own experimental aircraft, and possible experiments on the human population.
In fact, recently books have been written about government officials admitting that this was policy during the Cold War.
Are they true? I don’t know, but people might want to read Leslie Kean, Mark Pilkington and Nick Redfern’s new books on the subject.
Bigelow’s “S.H.A.D.O.”
There was a TV show back in the late 1960s, early 1970s called “UFO.”
Ubiquitous enough, eh?
It was produced by Gary Anderson, better known for making puppet shows, but this program had actual live actors. A game-changer for Anderson.
The premise of the show was that Earth was being attacked by UFO aliens who were kidnapping people in order to experiment on them in order to breed with humans.
Familiar story, no?
Anyway, S.H.A.D.O., an acronym for Supreme Headquarters Alien Defense Organisation, was formed as a private organization with no connection with governments (so to retain plausible deniability) to combat the alien threat.
S.H.A.D.O. had enough armaments to make Xe (Blackwater) jealous; mobiles (tanks), submarines, jets, rockets, moon shuttles, space interceptors and a Moon Base for them to launch from.
Now Bigelow doesn’t have all of that. Yet.
But it’s no secret he wishes to establish a private space business using his inflatable module technology, and possibly use the same technology for Moon bases.
And it’s also no secret Mr. Bigelow is interested in UFOs; the reason why they are here, who and what are the inhabitants and what technology they are using.
And also; why are some of them violent?
It sounds like a Hollywood plot for a 21st century remake of Earth versus the Flying Saucers.
San Francisco physicist Dr. Jack Sarfatti claims to have heard the rumor while visiting London in 2004, while in the company of Nick Cook, the well known aerospace journalist from the private intelligence publisher Janes Information Group.
“I was asked by the ‘CIA’ not to pursue the story in 2004, but now Bigelow has (allegedly, it seems) opened Pandora’s Box on the story.”
Sarfatti came forward with the rumor following a remark made by billionaire space maven Bob Bigelow to the New York Times about the dangers of UFOs:
“People have been killed. People have been hurt. It´s more than observational kind of data.”
The New York Times had interviewed Bigelow about his recent efforts to build a private space station. In the article, Bigelow was quoted about the lethality of the UFO phenomena, but the basis for Bigelow’s statement was not pursued.
According to Sarfatti, the rumor of a battle between Bob Bigelow’s employees and otherworldly beings was provided by a mysterious French woman, who was accompanied by a body guard carrying a mystery briefcase allegedly containing “some kind of ‘psychotronic’ weapon based on alien ET technology.”
Sarfatti says the woman claimed to be part of a semi-secret Paris UFO group, and the woman attributed the story to Jacques Vallee, the internationally famous researcher who inspired the French UFO researcher Claude Lacombe in Steven Spielberg’s classic UFO film Close Encounters of the Third Kind.
Sarfatti quickly added, “Allegedly Jacques Vallee denies the story, but now Bob Bigelow seems to have gone public with it — albeit without the details.”
Apparently Sarfatti, who in recent years has consulted to Dr. Ron Pandolfi (for the Office of the Director of National Intelligence) on speculative ideas related to reverse engineering hypothetical extraterrestrial technologies, also knows more of this rumor than he is willing to make public.
“I am not divulging details only the general nature of the remarks. In any case Nick Cook heard them also.”
In the 1990s, Bob Bigelow funded UFO investigations under a group he founded called the National Institute of Discovery Sciences, also known as NIDS.
Among the many investigations conducted by NIDS was the mysterious case of the so-called Bigelow Skinwalker Ranch in a remote region of Utah, where a variety of paranormal phenomena had been reported.
One experience made public by former NIDS personnel was the report of a nearly invisible being emerging from a tunnel that appeared to float in thin air, which led to speculation of an opening from another world — a star gate — built from a spacetime wormhole.
According to Sarfatti’s account, the French woman “claimed an actual gun battle at Bigelow Ranch with Bob’s paramilitary against aliens out of the wormhole with dead and wounded humans. She was very convincing and Nick Cook heard the strange tale at his private London Club with me and another witness. I debriefed Kit Green and Ron Pandolfi soon after and the story caused a big stir.”
Pandolfi and Green are well known for their interest in unusual phenomena and their history of employment with the CIA.
Given the many reports of pilots who have lost their lives pursuing UFOs beyond the safe operating range of their aircraft, Bigelow’s comments to the New York Times may have a more mundane explanation.
Until Mr. Bigelow comes forward with a more detailed explanation for his comments about lethal UFO encounters, Sarfatti’s expose’ of the rumor will only further inflame allegations of a cover-up among the fringe elements of the UFO community.
Veerry interesting.
Is Bob Bigelow a modern day, 21st Century Commander Straker? Did he let too much out of the bag?
Or will he be considered to be like Howard Hughes, a brilliant eccentric?
This story bears watching.
Bigelow Aerospace, lethal extraterrestrial UFOs, and alien battle tales revealed
And now, from the Fortean perspective…
All week long we’ve looked at different articles with conflicting viewpoints on Hawking’s statements that we should take care in broadcasting our presence to the Universe, because we might attract a powerful interstellar nomadic species that could very well steal our planet and kill us all.
Of course, in the premise of scientists such as Hawking, Jill Tarter and Seth Shostak, the assumption is that possible aliens are a safe many light-years away from us and more than likely continue to be so. Material interstellar travel to 95% of the scientific community is a fantasy; a thing of science-fiction and as ephemeral as pixie dust.
But what if the aliens are already here?
I could be talking about UFOs, but that is only part of the story.
According to Gary S. Bekkum of Starstream Research, aliens are not only here, but could be controlling high ranking figures in world governments:
…
“As Cambridge Professor Stephen Hawking — the world’s most famous physicist — is warning of the danger of contact with otherworldly life forms — the file collection at STARstream Research suggests they might already be here.According to Stephen Hawking, the aliens are ‘out there’ and pose a threat to human existence.
What if Hawking is right — contact with the aliens could be fatal — and what if they are already here?
One highly placed government-related source has confirmed to STARstream Research his opinion — based upon conversations with senior government associates and others — is the extraterrestrial presence is already here, and has made contact with the US government.
Others — notably from fringe government-funded projects like the NSA / DIA / CIA / STAR GATE psychic spy units — warn of an extraterrestrial presence walking among us, and based throughout the solar system.
Real or imagined? Cover-up, disinformation blitz, or bizarre tales based on hidden knowledge of the alien presence?
Over the past several years, persons known for their government affiliations — including key consultants on new technology threats and past and present intelligence officials — have been providing information ‘on background’ to a handful of Internet-based journalists about the CORE STORY: rumors of extraterrestrial contacts with the US government.
Based upon the best information available, it appears that the CORE STORY emerged in the mid-1980s from tales of USAF involvement with extraterrestrial visitors and other, more esoteric events surrounding the United States SECRET psychic spy research.
According to some sources, scientists from Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory were overcome by paranormal events during investigations of anomalous mental phenomena — the apparent ability of the human mind to access information beyond the reach of ordinary senses — including a series of bizarre holographic-like projections of strange animals, and even a disembodied arm, floating in space.
Later, additional “veridical data” said to have originated with the LLNL security officer, led to the idea of a CORE STORY within the US government.
At least one independent and unrelated source I call “Sarge,” from the USAF, told me in the early 1980s about strangeness taking place involving the Air Force and the aliens.
Recently, other sources have come forward and have provided information concerning an alleged series of extraterrestrial contacts; alleged to have taken place in 1947, 1983, and 1992.
When pressed for the source of this information, we have been told that at least some of the rumors originated with very senior government officials, possibly including Presidents of the United States.
Gus Russo, an investigative author known for his books about the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, was independently advised by one unidentified source:
“I believe there’s a ‘core story’, but I don’t know what it is. I have been told by people more senior than me that there is some truth to it, but they told me time and time again to stop pursuing it with CIA people and other Intel types. Two very senior officials told me they saw briefing books, [however] the only ones who would be cleared to know the story are the most senior Pentagon career officers. I have spoken to three former Presidents and the subject always comes up, not as a briefing, but they also want to know the truth. But apparently they aren’t cleared for it.”
A key figure from America’s STAR GATE program, who helped to develop the mental techniques used to spy on the Soviets at the height of the cold war, revealed in 1998 that he had been taken on-board by a covert group interested in uncovering an alien presence on the Moon. In my book, Spies, Lies, and Polygraph Tape, I retell the story of Ingo Swann, adding additional recently declassified material from STAR GATE. According to Ingo Swann, following covert sessions tasked to psychically spy on the lunar aliens — by a mysterious man he calls “Mr. Axelrod” — he encountered an Extraterrestrial Avatar — an alien in the form of a beautiful human woman — as she was being watched by Axelrod’s henchmen in black. The entire story strains credulity — one can easily imagine Axelrod’s men playing mind-games with Swann — but later the same covert group took Swann to a remote location in Alaska to witness first hand one of the extraterrestrial visitations.
According to the account provided by Ingo Swann, the extraterrestrial craft was diamond shaped and faded into existence from a mist suspended over a lake. At one point, the group had to dive for cover: according to Swann, they came under attack by “ruby-red laser beams” which blasted the surrounding woods.
In another report found in the CIA released STAR GATE files, a Defense Intelligence Agency officer tasked his psychic spy to remote view aliens in the solar system. According to the documents, which are stamped by official CIA release identification markings (and are available to view at STARpod.org), the DIA psychic team identified three locations populated by extraterrestrial entities, including locations on the Earth.
In recent years, several sources have come forward and alleged the existence of a new psychic spy effort, alleged to be under the management of the DIA and the National Security Agency. According to one source to Gus Russo — a person who claims to know someone working for the program — an attempted psychic spy operation against a foreign target was disrupted by “interference from an unknown extraterrestrial source.”
Sources familiar with or alleged to have been involved with the NSA program claim to have been tasked to locate Saddam Hussein in Iraq.
A key component in many tales of extraterrestrial encounters is an alien Internet — a ‘telepathic’ direct mind-to-mind information system — which is, perhaps, the basis of the claims of remote viewing psychic phenomena used by the United States government to spy on enemy targets.
According to Swann, ordinary human psychic perception falls flat in comparison to what he has described as the alien’s “telepathy plus,” a powerful and robust form of mind-to-mind communication suggestive of the use of technology to connect brains to each other.
Recent developments in the neurosciences are also suggestive of the possibility of a “telepathy plus” — the direct intervention of human perception using advanced information processing.
All of the above, if taken at face value, suggests the CORE STORY of contact could be interpreted as the takeover (by an unknown, presumably extraterrestrial presence) of the minds of key human leaders, as part of a covert alien operation to subvert the human race from within. Is it possible the US government has been faced with an insidious extraterrestrial ultra-high-tech command, communication, control, and communication system?
Or, perhaps, the rumors are merely chatter, virally spread throughout the intelligence community by a handful of well-positioned individuals.
Either way, Hawking is clear: contact with an extraterrestrial source may ultimately prove to be fatal.”
…
In my InnerTube travels during the past three years, I’ve run across Ingo Swan, Stargate Program, YellowBook, alien moonbase, etc., and the sources are usually pretty sketchy to begin with and doubtful at best. Legends of MJ-12, Project SERPO and Eisenhower signing a treaty with aliens also are stories of InnerTube lore and hard to trace and nail down with certainty.
There’s one thing for sure however, Mr. Bekkum is right about there being a “core story” meme that is used through-out the government pipelines to the corporate media and disseminated in drips and drabs to the clueless public.
So is this story just as credible as the others that were talked about during this past week?
Time will tell.
Is Stephen Hawking’s Extraterrestrial Alien Warning Too Late?
Roswell Redux, again / Obama Visit to KSC
The Roswell Mystery continuously rears its ugly head into our ken time and again it seems like.
“Did a UFO crash there?” “Was it Project Mogul?” “Weather balloons”, “Crash test dummies”, “Aliens to Hanger 18”, “Is there a hangar 18?”
On and on and on – blah-blah-blah…
It’s enough to drive a tin-foiler off the deep end I tell you!
Then there’s this disclosure thing. Sweet Jesus don’t let me get on that! Please!
Well it seems that I’m not the only one who has a problem with Roswell Redux, Nick Redfern, author of ‘Body Snatchers in the Desert‘, writes a tome on why we’ll never be rid of the Roswell meme.
And why the mystery will never be solved:
[…]here’s why I am certain that Roswell will never be resolved.
Unless you include whistle-blower documentation such as the MJ12 documents as being evidence in support of what happened – or didnot happen – on the Foster Ranch, Lincoln County, New Mexico on the fateful day in early July 1947, the only real data of any significance that we have in-hand comes from the witnesses.
And that’s a good thing; a very good thing. The reason being that without the reports, testimony and recollections of the witnesses, all we would have would be a couple of pages of official documents (such as a 1-page FBI memo and a few other scant items), a handful of press-photographs, and a bunch of newspaper clippings. In other words, whatever happened at Roswell, it is thanks to the witnesses that we know something of significance occurred.
So, witness testimony is massively important and has taken us to where we are today with respect to Roswell – which, unfortunately, is a confusing, hall-of-mirrors realm inhabited by tales of crashed UFOs, dead aliens, crash-test-dummies, Mogul-balloons, weather-balloons, flying-wings, Nazi-saucers, Japanese PoWs, Unit 731, V-2 rockets, atomic mishaps, and more. In other words, the witness testimony and second-hand and third-hand testimony is huge – but, rather than uniformly presenting one version of events, the testimony and data has merely muddied the waters even further.
And there’s another problem, and it’s a big one; a very big one, in fact. Due to the passage of time and the inevitability of death, most of the witnesses are gone. Ten or fifteen years from now they will likely all be gone.
Then, with our (thus far) one and only meaningful source of data gone forever, how will we take Roswell further? How will we solve Roswell? Will we even be able to solve Roswell – ever? That’s where I take issue with those who desperately want Roswell to be proved extraterrestrial before they, too, go to the big Hangar 18 in the sky, and who earnestly believe it will be solved, to the point where we have hard evidence, not just a body of intriguing, interesting and notable testimony.
Here’s the problem that many fail to deal with in a level-headed fashion: witness testimony is vital to any investigation and can shed welcome light (sometimes a little light and sometimes a great deal of light) on matters of profound controversy – which Roswell most assuredly is. The problem, however, is that no matter how much testimony and witness material we get, that will still never, ever, definitively prove what happened at Roswell.
The reason the Roswell debate is ongoing – despite literally hundreds of people having offered testimony in varying degrees (first-hand, second-hand, third-hand, etc.) is because no-one has thus far delivered the goods. And by the goods, I mean, of course, a body, a body-part, undeniable extraterrestrial wreckage, or undeniable “Roswell UFO Files” that can be proved to have originated with one or more elements of the official world back in the late-1940s.
So, by 2025, when the Roswell research community will have likely lost its strongest and only source of quality data – the people and the witnesses – the only way we can ever hope to solve Roswell is by getting access to the bodies, the craft and the documentation – if such even exist.
Mission accomplished, for the government that is.
They made damn sure no truth will never come from this. Never mind all this Mogul balloon nonsense. If they came up with that explanation sixty-some-odd years ago, it probably would have worked and nothing more would have been said of it.
Then again maybe not. The weather balloon lie held for thirty years until 1978 one of the ‘witnesses’ wrote a book, so who’s to say the whole thing would not have started anyway.
Why Roswell Will Never Be Solved by Nick Redfern
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Today President Obamanator visits the Kennedy Spaceflight Center this afternoon to finally tell (sell) the workers why they must be laid off and why his new space policy should be adopted.
Basically, for you non-space cadet types, Obama’s plan cancels the Constellation Program, lets the shuttle retire in September of this year as planned and gives ‘commercial’ space companies like SpaceX, Orbital Science Corporation, United Launch Alliance and others funds to develop transportation to the International Space Station.
Recently, just earlier this week in fact, Mr. O is allowing the Orion space capsule to live, only in a down-sized version that will be an escape pod for the ISS, in order to throw a little pork in Colorado’s direction.
A lot of folks are angry about the Constellation Program being canned, mainly politicians and workers in Florida, Alabama, Louisiana and Texas, red states who don’t support Obama anyway, and probably wouldn’t even if they were allowed to build a warp drive and launch equipment.
Severe cognitive dissonance resonate through-out the fabled red-states. Must be nice to create your own reality, I have to learn how to do that!
Anyway, I don’t think the Big O cares much about space, especially human spaceflight. Rumor has it he really intends that NASA build and launch replacements for the climate monitoring satellites ol’ George H.W. Bush had launched over twenty years ago.
Actually, I kinda like Obama’s new plan, a little private enterprise in space isn’t such a bad idea. Maybe some innovation could come out of it.
If not, the military is worried that the US could falter in missile technology.
Could be that’s why they’re so interested in SpaceX’s Falcon 9 inaugural flight in May?
http://www.space.com/news/obama-space-plan-speech-preview-100415.html
Messages to ET / V-2s and UFOs
Over across the Pond to Merrye Olde UK, there was a contest to gather up some messages to send through the aether to potential alien civilizations who happen to have a similar cult of SETI.
This is in commemoration of the 50th anniversary of SETI and the publication of Paul Davies’ new book The Eerie Silence: Are We Alone in the Universe?
After reading some of these entries, I’d hate to ask them for job references!
Over the years, there have been many explanations for why alien life forms – if they exist – have failed to make contact with the Earth. But after extensive research, The Daily Telegraph can unveil the real reason: they have far too much good sense.
A month ago, we helped launch a competition to find the best messages to be sent hurtling into space, in order to mark the 50th anniversary of the Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence (SETI) programme and the publication of The Eerie Silence: Are We Alone in the Universe?, a new book by the astrophysicist, Paul Davies. The winning entries will be announced this Friday (the first day of National Science and Engineering Week), and then beamed out into the stars from BT’s Goonhilly Earth Station in Cornwall.
We were vaguely expecting the entries to be uplifting and spiritual – messages of interstellar peace and love, that sort of thing. But how wrong we were! Almost 1,000 suggestions came flooding in from all over the globe, but they painted a picture of a planet that is such a miserable place to be that you wouldn’t blame ET for legging it back to his distant star.
For what would he learn about mankind? First, that we are vicious, creatures who have already done a great job of wrecking our home. “Please kill us now … have no mercy,” urged a gentleman from Indiana. “We are evil and you must defend yourself.”
“Keep away from this planet,” agreed Pamela from Sicily. “Mankind is only intent on depleting, abusing and destroying [it]. They will do the same to yours should they find it. Mankind is the worst virus in the universe. You have been warned.”
Nick from Calne was equally blunt: “If you manage to work out how to travel to us, don’t bother, as we’ll probably probe you, try to blow you up or worse still, steal your technology and invade… Have a nice day.”
Rob from Georgia, meanwhile, was prepared to throw the rest of mankind to the lions: “Dearest Aliens, If you choose to conquer Earth, please do not kill or enslave those of us who can name all 12 men to have walked on the Moon. We are the ones worth keeping around.”
Seema from Elgin had a compelling reason for ET not to bother with us: “If you’re planning to visit our planet, please know you will need to remove all metal from your person, take your shoes off and submit to a full body scan, carry all liquids/gels/aerosols in clear plastic bottles no bigger than 3.4oz, surrender all cigarette lighters and batteries, pack all jams and jellies (but pies can be carried on)… Oh, yes. Welcome to the Earth!”
As if all that negativity wasn’t off-putting enough, another theme came through loud and clear from the entries: even those elements of humanity that aren’t genocidal are terrifically needy. “Come and say hello!” begged Doug from Dublin. “You have already made our mistakes ages ago, come and tip us off and save us a lot more grief!”
“There are billions of us, yet we feel utterly alone,” lamented Stacey from Calgary. “We strive to find the meaning in our lonely lives, and maybe you can help us. Call soon.”
Not that I’m a fan of intentionally broadcasting our presence into the void anyways, but any alien civilization receiving this message would think we all need some kind of psychological therapy!
But standard thinking is that any aliens receiving radio messages from us would be many thousands of centuries into the future and we’d be long dead.
Or we would’ve taken over their planet and colonized it.
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On the other side of the coin, where some believe that aliens are/have been already here, we have information that proposes that the US Army not only captured crashed UFOs post-WW2, but they drew them in by launching captured German V2 rockets!
The White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico played a significant role in the testing of German-captured V-2 rockets in the mid and late 1940s. From this massive range the fierce rockets were regularly launched. These complex devices of destruction were propelled through the air to test the hurl of explosives at an enemy.
But new research reveals that the V-2’s also somehow “attracted” UFOs- and that our military even purposely cast up V-2’s that were mounted with cameras to take motion pictures of the discs! A world-famous physicist, a former state congressman, an expert radar operator and a government atmospheric scientist all confirm: flying saucers were drawn to the V-2’s and were filmed by the pernicious projectiles- and there may well have been a Roswell crash connection!
First-Ever Photo of the Horizon of Earth (From V-2 Rocket, 1946)
Developed at the end of the Second World War by Nazi Germany, the V-2 was the world’s very first long-range combat-ballistic missile. As the single most expensive development project of the Third Reich, it was also the first human-made device to achieve suborbital flight. The progenitor of space flight and of all modern rockets, these tubes of terror were horrifying weapons that killed many thousands of people in Antwerp and London and destroyed critical Allied infrastructure. The V-2s were captured by our nation’s military upon Hitler’s defeat and taken to the U.S. and reassembled.
Tested for killer power at White Sands, the V-2 also provided something that is little-known to most, even today: never before seen aerial views and perspectives of the skies and earth. This was achieved by skillfully placing still-photography and motion picture equipment onto the rockets…
(Extremely Rare Video Clip of a view from a V-2 Rocket Camera:)
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The film above shows a captured V-2 rocket being used as a test platform for the US space program. The date of this incredible footage is November 22, 1946.
This seems to add some credence to Stanton Friedman‘s “nuts and bolts” theory of UFOs, that they’re advanced alien spacecraft checking out us local primitive natives.
Time will tell as more info either gets pried or leaked out.
Secret Space – Aliens and the Illuminati?
Far be it for me to be a conspiracy monger (heh-heh), but here is a little tid-bit from 2005 that accuses NASA of being in cahoots with the Illuminati and why we haven’t been back to the Moon in over four decades (and we’re still not going back there, the Constellation Project is cancelled) if we had ever been there at all. (Recent photos indicate we have been though.)
Below is a YouTube clip of Secret Space, a movie that’s chock full of said conspiracies. It has all you want; aliens, Nazis, NASA, Illuminati and UFOs.
It has David Icke though. So take it as you will.
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Secret Space
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Paracast’s Tribute To Mac Tonnies and Project Kugelblitz
Gene Steinberg and David Biedny celebrate the life of Fortean/science-fiction writer Mac Tonnies on the November 1st, 2009 Paracast with guests Greg Bishop, Patrick Huyghe, Paul Kimball and Nick Redfern, people who were close friends or worked with Tonnies on various projects.
A very touching send-off for Tonnies.
Somehow, I have to think that in the many Universes of the Multi-verse, Mac got up that Monday morning as normal and went to work as if nothing happened, still thinking about publishing his book.
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Western militaries have been searching for a technological edge against whatever enemy-of-the-decade we happen to be fighting against for the past sixty-five years. Power supplies happen to be part of that equation since if western militaries can lower the incidences of refueling airborn and ground fighting machines, that means they can spend more time fighting the ‘enemy.’
Enter Project Kugelblitz.
The announcement came in May 2006 that – after decades of secretly investigating UFOs – the Ministry of Defence had come to the conclusion that aliens were not visiting Britain. The MoD’s claims were revealed within the pages of a formerly classified document – entitled Unidentified Aerial Phenomena in the UK Air Defence Region, and code-named Project Condign – that had been commissioned in 1996 and was completed in February 2000.
Released under the terms of the Freedom of Information Act thanks specifically to the work of FT contributor Dr David Clarke and UFO researcher Gary Anthony, the 465-page document demonstrated how air defence experts had concluded that UFO sightings were probably the result of “natural, but relatively rare phenomena” such as ball lightning and atmospheric plasmas. UFOs, wrote the still-unknown author of the MoD’s report, were “of no defence significance”.
Inevitably, many UFO investigators claimed that the MoD’s report was merely a ruse to hide its secret knowledge of alien encounters, crashed UFOs, and high-level X-Files-type conspiracies. And although the Government firmly denied such claims, the report did reveal a number of significant conclusions of a genuinely intriguing nature.
The atmospheric plasmas which were believed to be the cause of so many UFO reports were “still barely understood”, said the MoD, and the magnetic and electric fields that emanated from plasmas could adversely affect the human nervous system. And that was not all. Clarke and Anthony revealed that “Volume 3 of the report refers to research and studies carried out in a number of foreign nations into UAPs [Unidentified Aerial Phenomena], atmospheric plasmas, and their potential military applications.”
That such research was of interest to the MoD is demonstrated in a Loose Minute of 4 December 2000 called Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAP) – DI55 Report, which reveals: “DG(R&T) [Director-General, Research & Technology] will be interested in those phenomena associated with plasma formations, which have potential applications to novel weapon technology.”
This was further borne out in an article on Condign written by James Randerson and published in the Guardian on 22 February 2007 (“Could we have hitched a ride on UFOs?”). It stated in part: “According to a former MoD intelligence analyst who asked not be named, the MoD was paranoid in the late 1980s that the Soviet Union had developed technology that went beyond western knowledge of physics. ‘For many years we were very concerned that in some areas the Russians had a handle on physics that we hadn’t at all. We just basically didn’t know the basics they were working from,’ he said. ‘We did encourage our scientists not to think that we in the West knew everything there was to be known.’”
And it wasn’t just the British Ministry of Defence and the Russians who recognised the potential military spin-offs that both plasmas and ball lightning offered – if they could be understood and harnessed, of course. Official documentation that has surfaced in the United States reveals that only two years after pilot Kenneth Arnold’s now-historic UFO encounter over the Cascade Mountains, Washington State, on 24 June 1947, the US military secretly began looking at ways to exploit such phenomena.
While the US Air Force was busying itself trying to determine whether UFOs were alien spacecraft, Soviet inventions, or even the work of an ultra-secret domestic project, the US Department of Commerce was taking a distinctly different approach. In its search for answers to the UFO puzzle, the DoC was focusing much of its attention on one of the most mystifying and controversial of all fortean phenomena: ball lightning.
A technical report, Project Grudge, published in 1949 by the Air Force’s UFO investigative unit detailed the findings of the DoC’s Weather Bureau with respect to ball lightning, which it believed was connected to normal lightning and electrical discharge. The phenomenon, said the DoC, was “spherical, roughly globular, egg-shaped, or pear-shaped; many times with projecting streamers; or flame-like irregular ‘masses of light’. Luminous in appearance, described in individual cases by different colours but mostly reported as deep red and often as glaring white.”
The Weather Bureau’s study added: “Some of the cases of ‘ball lightning’ observed have displayed excrescences of the appearance of little flames emanating from the main body of the luminous mass, or luminous streamers have developed from it and propagated slant-wise toward the ground… In rare instances, it has been reported that the luminous body may break up into a number of smaller balls which may appear to fall towards the earth like a rain of sparks. It has even been reported that the ball has suddenly ejected a whole bundle of many luminous, radiating streamers toward the earth, and then disappeared. There have been reports by observers of ‘ball lightning’ to the effect that the phenomenon appeared to float through a room or other space for a brief interval of time without making contact with or being attracted by objects.”
Possibly unknown outside of official circles – until I made the discovery at the US National Archives, Maryland, two years ago – is the fact that a complete copy of the Air Force’s Project Grudge document was, somewhat surprisingly, shared with US Army personnel at the Edgewood Arsenal, Maryland, in early 1950.
Even more surprising is a curiously-worded entry contained in the covering letter from the Air Force to Edgewood staff that accompanied the Grudge report: “You are aware we have already discussed with Mr Clapp the theoretical incendiary applications of Ball-Lightening [sic] that might be useful to the several German projects at Kirtland. Useful data should be routed to Mr Clapp through this office.”
Precisely who the mysterious Mr Clapp was, I have thus far been unable to determine; however, the fact that he is described as ‘Mr’ is a strong indication that he was not a member of the military. ‘Kirtland’ can only be a reference to Kirtland Air Force Base, New Mexico. Named in 1942 after Roy C Kirtland – the oldest military pilot in the Air Corps – the base is located in the southeast quadrant of Albuquerque, New Mexico, adjacent to the Albuquerque International Sunport airport, and employs over 23,000 people. Moreover, Kirtland AFB has been the site of numerous mystifying UFO incidents since the late 1940s.
As for the reference to “the several German projects” apparently in place at Kirtland at the time, this is almost certainly related to the US Government’s controversial Operation Paperclip which, in the post-World War II era, saw countless German scientists – some of whom were Nazis, and many of whom were engaged in advanced aerospace research – secretly offered employment in the US, and particularly at military installations in New Mexico, such as the White Sands Proving Ground.
HARNESS-CAVALIER
So, can we assume from the hints contained in this letter that by early 1950 some sort of combined Army-Air Force project, or at the very least, an exchange of information, was underway at Edgewood Arsenal – possibly working in tandem with a similar project at Kirtland Air Force Base – to try to understand and harness the power of ball lightning?The answer would appear to be yes. Documentation has disclosed the identity of a project nicknamed Harness-Cavalier, the purpose of which was indeed to understand and capitalise on the true nature of ball lightning, and which, from 1950 to at least the mid-1960s utilised the skills of personnel from Edgewood Arsenal, Kirtland Air Force Base, and also Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Dayton, Ohio.
Via the Freedom of Information Act, a whole host of documents from the files of Harness-Cavalier – now numbering more than 120 – have surfaced, demonstrating that those attached to the project were kept well-informed of any and all developments in the field of ball lightning, and particularly how it might be exploited militarily.
Such documentation includes: “Theory of the Lightning Ball and its Application to the Atmospheric Phenomenon Called ‘Flying Saucers”, written by Carl Benadicks in 1954; “Ball Lightning: A Survey”, prepared by one JR McNally for the Oak Ridge National Laboratory, Tennessee (year unknown); DV Ritchie’s “Reds May Use Lightning as a Weapon”, which appeared in Missiles and Rockets in August 1959; and “An Experimental and Theoretical Program to Investigate the Feasibility of Confining Plasma in Free Space by Radar Beams”, which was written by CM Haaland in 1960 for the Armour Research Foundation, Illinois Institute of Technology.
The strongest evidence that confirms Edgewood Arsenal’s deep interest in the potential use of ball lightning on the battlefield can be found in a December 1965 document entitled “Survey of Kugelblitz Theories for Electromagnetic Incendiaries”. Written by WB Lyttle and CE Wilson, the document was prepared under contract for the US Army’s New Concepts Division/ Special Projects at Edgewood.
This is totally fascinating in that this explains quite a bit of why the US military kept the stories of ‘UFOs’ alive and were able to keep the prying eyes of the public away from their various research projects.
Exploring ‘ball-lightning’ and the use thereof would solve quite a lot of the problems of refueling fighters and other esoteric weaponry DARPA could dream up to kill people.
Tesla invented the concept himself one hundred years ago when he imagined transferring artificial electrical ‘ball lightning’ from transfer station to transfer station around the world (spawning a theory about the 1908 Tunguska, Siberia explosion).
No wires or cables required. A completely ‘wireless’ network world-wide.
For free.
We don’t know for sure if the Pentagon has this ability and we only have people like Andrew D. Basiago’s claims they do, but imagine the implications!
Project Kugelblitz: Evidence that the US military planned to harness the power of ball lightning
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Mars Jump Gates and UFO Nuclear Secrets
Who needs the Constellation Program when we already possess the technology to go to Mars and build underground cities and bases there?
According to Andrew D. Basiago, we (meaning the US) have jump-gate and time travel capability that was stolen from Nicola Tesla before he died in 1946.
Interesting interview on Red Ice Creations.
Andrew D. Basiago – Comments, Questions and Answers
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The military implications of UFO activity has silently been a concern to the national security alphabet soup agencies and the military for over 60 some-odd years, although publicly denied.
Now there is going to be a college lecture on the subject in Wilmington, North Carolina:
At a nuclear missile launch site in North Dakota, a guard spots a mysterious bright light hovering over the location of each rocket silo.
Below ground, officers on duty notice their missiles start to activate one by one.
In the launch capsule, an officer orders emergency procedures when he sees every bomb targeted by the intruder prepare to fire.
UFO researcher Robert Hastings has recorded this and other testimony from retired U.S. military personnel who worked at nuclear facilities over the past four decades. He says there’s a pattern of UFOs targeting nuclear launch sites not just in the United States, but around the world.
“One might interpret that as these beings attempting to send a warning to us humans that we are playing with fire,” Hastings said. “Alternatively, it could be that these beings are planning to invade Earth and don’t want to inhabit a radioactive wasteland.”
A retired laboratory analyst and lifelong UFO investigator, Hastings will give a free lecture and slideshow in the Burney Center at the University of North Carolina Wilmington at 7 p.m. today Hastings says his findings confirm beyond a reasonable doubt the existence of UFOs and their concern to top-level military and intelligence officials.
“I’m trying to get this message out to the public to let people know that this is not science fiction, this is not Hollywood, this is not the funny pages – this is absolutely real,” Hastings said.
In more than 30 years of research on UFO sightings, Hastings has collected testimony from 120 veterans, and reviewed thousands of de-classified Air Force, FBI and CIA documents. He has appeared on CNN’s Larry King Live, spoken at more than 500 colleges and published a book on his findings last year. His presentation at UNCW is part of the campus’ ACE Voice program, a series of speakers invited to bring fresh perspectives to campus.
Decades of research was kindled by a mysterious sighting one night during Hastings’ high school job as a janitor at an Air Force base in Montana in 1967. As Hastings cleaned the radar room, an officer on duty told him they were monitoring UFOs in the area, and showed him five hovering objects on the radar screen. Within minutes, the officer grew tense and ordered Hastings out of the room. Later, the officer refused to discuss what had happened. With that, a lifelong quest was born.
Hastings’ focus is on collecting firsthand accounts from military veterans of UFO sightings and activity during their service time. He conducts careful research to confirm each source’s background, and corroborates each account with other eyewitness descriptions and de-classified government documents.
Hastings believes the government’s knowledge of UFOs is kept quiet out of fear of public panic if the information was released.
Over the years, Hastings says he has seen half a dozen UFOs with his own eyes, including a set of bright lights hovering over radio and TV towers in Albequerque that covered eight miles in three seconds. Though Hastings emphasizes that he is only speculating, he believes that at least one race of alien visitors has been monitoring Earth for a long time.
“I think we’re slowly as a race being acquainted with their reality and presence here, and at some point they’re going to leave no doubt in anyone’s mind that that’s what’s going on,” Hastings said.
Hastings has also been on the Paracast about this subject too.
My belief is that the military doesn’t do anything because it can’t do anything about it!
Lecture at UNCW will focus on military concerns about UFOs
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UFO Round-Up and Staring At Goats
Time for more UFO stuff to round out the week and to motivate you good folks to keep your eye on the sky!
Is this technology or animal. You decide!
A man living in the village El Nihuil reported seeing an object that he could not identify. He took pictures of it with his cell phone and believes it’s an UFO.
The man decided to protect his identity for fear of public opinion. Although reluctant to make public the episode, a friend persuaded him to publish it in a local Journal and after the promise to safeguard his identity.
It all started last Saturday, around 3 o’clock in the afternoon, near the Nautical Club, when the man went to the coast to check on the conditions for fishing.
He said that while he tries to photograph the object with his cellphone, it began to emit a kind of buzz and, as if it blew hard on the water, stirring, begins to rise. At that time, and while the object rises, he managed to take photographs of the strange silhouette.
The small town is in Argentina. It doesn’t get spread around much up here in North America, but South America has been a hot-bed of UFO activity for decades.
Does look like some kind of animal, doesn’t it?
Phantoms and Monsters: Strange UFO/OVNI
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From the UFO Casebook:
While taking images of persistent contrails (chemtrails) over the Los Angeles basin in October, 2006, I captured these two photographs of a very anomalous object producing a trail that essentially spanned the entire western sky.
The pictures were taken with a Nikon Coolpix and a Nikon spotting scope with a focal length of approximately 800mm. Looking through the viewfinder, I was able to see a bright object at the head of the trail which didn’t appear to be a conventional aircraft.
Upon transferring the images to my computer, I realized I had captured something unlike any other images of UFOs I had ever seen.
My own suspicion is that this may be an aircraft utilizing some form of electromagnetic cloaking device which diverts light around the object, somewhat like water flowing around a stone. I would think that such a device would have to be “tuned” or adjusted to varying atmospheric conditions (humidity, temperature, etc) and that when the tuning is not precisely correct, artifacts are visible around the otherwise cloaked aircraft.
This is just my guess, and as to why anyone would be flying such aircraft in a cloaked mode over a population center such as Los Angeles I have no idea.
An optical physicist friend of mine thinks that the trail is not a vapor trail, but is a plasma being produced by the high energy of the object. If anyone else has any theories, I would be interested to hear them.
Makes you want to take a closer look at all those supposed ‘jet’ contrails on a nice summer sunset, doesn’t it?
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And lastly, how about some cloak and dagger stuff, hmm..?
“The man who reactivated me is… ” Uri paused, then he said, “called Ron.”
I was reading Jon Ronson’s book, THE MEN WHO STARE AT GOATS.
Ronson wrote, “Was Ron FBI? CIA? Military intelligence? Homeland security? Could Ron be MI5? MI6?”
“Ah ha!” I thought. “Now it makes sense!”
I knew that Ron worked for CIA.
And why Uri Geller may have found himself “reactivated” for the war on terror.
“This is about what happened when a small group of men — highly placed within the United States military, the government, and the intelligence services — began believing in very strange things.”
Thus begins Jon’s Ronson’s disturbing and entertaining exploration of high strangeness infecting the US government in his follow-up to his first book THEM: Adventures with Extremists.
THEM clearly set the tone for Ronson’s unique approach to the sources and methods found in THE MEN WHO STARE AT GOATS — understated shock and awe tempered by a dry sense of humor in all the right places.
When faced with video evidence of alleged mind-control over a small animal, Ronson notes:
“It does seem odd … although I have to say that emotions such as circumspection and wariness are not that easy to discern in hamsters.”
Ronson (who followed in the footsteps of another UK citizen and journalist, Nick Cook of Janes Defence Weekly) was astonished by the fascination high-ranking persons in the United States exhibited over the paranormal. And like Cook and Ronson, who had observed the inexplicable weirdness (which had largely emerged for all to see on the Internet in the 1990s) — I was also curious about what had inspired strange beliefs in the unreal.
Since the mid-1990s I had been exploring far-out science with an eye on future developments.
It did appear that an entire industry had developed around improbable imaginary weapons, but what of the impossible?
All of this, of course refers to the movie “The Men Who Stare At Goats” which delves into the US Army’s studies into ‘psychic’ energy/powers.
Now whether there is any veracity to Geller’s claims that he was ‘reactivated’ for these projects is problematic at best.
Hmm, better ask James Randi before his health declines. Since the US government historically has used such projects during the Cold War, I wonder if Randi has ever considered debunking them?
Spies, Lies and Polygraph Tape
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Thanks to Debris Field for today’s hat tips!
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Paracast Round-Tables/Tunguska UFO?
I caught up on a couple of Paracast episodes yesterday and I found them very enlightening and entertaining. The first one was broadcast May 14, 2009 and it was Gene and Dave’s first listener confab, featuring long-time listeners and forum commenters BrandonD, Dusty, Fahrusha, Schuyler and Skunkape (They use their actual first names during the show).
A few of these folks are actual experiencers of the paranormal. Good show!
Listener Round-Table Podcast 5/17/09
The following show was ‘cast May 24, 2009 featuring Robert Hastings and Don Ecker, long-time Paracast guests and skeptics of the much maligned MJ-12 Documents.
Hasting is author of the book “UFOs and Nukes” and Ecker is a “retired” UFO researcher who runs a website called Dark Matters Radio and also comments on the Paracast forums.
This was an excellent show too, but it basically rehashed some of what these two have posited over the past year or so. Still, this is better quality than what one would normally get from an esoteric site; logical questions, educated guesses and no New Agey bullshite!
Ecker and Hastings Interview 5/24/09
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Alien intervention?
Dr. Yuri Labvin, president of the Tunguska Spatial Phenomenon Foundation, insists that an alien spacecraft sacrificed itself to prevent a gigantic meteor from slamming into the planet above Siberia on June 30, 1908.
The result was was the Tunguska event, a massive blast estimated at 15 megatons that downed 80 million trees over nearly 100 square miles. Eyewitnesses reported a bright light and a huge shock wave, but the area was so sparsely populated no one was killed.
Most scientists think the blast was caused by a meteorite exploding several miles above the surface. But Labvin thinks quartz slabs with strange markings found at the site are remnants of an alien control panel, which fell to the ground after the UFO slammed into the giant rock.
“We don’t have any technologies that can print such kind of drawings on crystals,” Labvin told the Macedonian International News Agency. “We also found ferrum silicate that can not be produced anywhere, except in space.”
I never heard of any quartz panels or “ferrum silicate” (iron-glass, glass-iron?) recovered at the Tunguska site before.
But then again, this is being put out by Faux Noise, which makes this kind of hard to believe.
Even this stuff.
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